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What can sci-fi teach us about the future of autonomous vehicles, transportation, and human nature? “Black Panther” Production Designer and Ohio native Hannah Beachler explains her personal struggles with inaccessible transportation systems, how and why she designed the fictional, car-free capital of Wakanda, and what it would take for her to trust a self-driving car. Plus, she shares her love of Porsche and a secret that may shine a light on the friction between personal freedom and the future of urban mobility.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Roy: On this episode of No Parking, we’re gonna talk to production designer Hannah Beachler. She did the movie Creed, she did Fruitvale Station, but most importantly she did Black Panther, which had this really cool transportation system, and everyone has been talking about it. We got to catch up with her at Ford City of Tomorrow this summer. Bryan, do you enjoy things like Ford City of Tomorrow? Did you enjoy that?

Bryan Salesky: That was a great event. Yeah, it was really fun. It was neat to see Hannah speak.

Alex Roy: And did you enjoy the movie Creed?

Bryan Salesky: I did. That’s a great…

Alex Roy: Did you enjoy the movie Fruitvale Station?

Bryan Salesky: Of course. Well, I’m not sure I’ve seen that one, but I’ve heard great things about it. It’s on my list, now that I’ve met Hannah.

Alex Roy: Not enough boxing in the movie.

Bryan Salesky: Right.

Alex Roy: Okay, But did you enjoy the movie Black Panther?

Bryan Salesky: Black Panther’s incredible. Absolutely amazing set design. Amazing.

Alex Roy: Why do I think you didn’t actually see the movie?

Bryan Salesky: I saw the movie.

Alex Roy: Did you enjoy it?

Bryan Salesky: I did.

Alex Roy: You loved it.

Bryan Salesky: I loved the movie. Yes.

Alex Roy: All right. So now that we’re many months since this interview, can you tell us why you could not sit in on the interview with Hannah Beachler?

Bryan Salesky: I was in the middle of a little deal.

Alex Roy: What deal was that?

Bryan Salesky: Ah, well, we were trying to get the Volkswagen thing closed.

Alex Roy: How’d that work out for you?

Bryan Salesky: It closed.

Alex Roy: Is there anything else you want to say about that?

Bryan Salesky: No. Well, we’re super excited to have them on board as a partner, of course. So, I think it was time well spent. I wanted to be on the podcast, but y’know, this was important.

Alex Roy: Is a rule of Midwestern values that you will not say things like we raised $2.7 billion for our self-driving car company and are now one of the most important companies on the planet? Is that like one of your values?

Bryan Salesky: Um, yeah. I mean, I don’t know. It’s hard to talk about ourselves sometimes, but yeah, we’re proud of the team, and what was just accomplished is a huge validation for the company. Absolutely. Team’s like, really excited.

Alex Roy: You know something? The difference between you and I isn’t just that you’re the CEO of that company. It’s that if I were the CEO, I would be screaming from the rooftops. All right, let’s get into the episode, which is really fascinating because Hannah had a secret. Let’s find out what that was.

Hannah Beachler: Hi!

Alex Roy: Thank you so much for coming. I would really like to just talk about film in general, but because we’re here at City of Tomorrow, we are gonna have to talk about technology and transportation. I actually- I learned about you a few months ago, cause I was reading, I think, an article in Slate.com, which suggested that the most interesting representation of the future of urban transportation was in Wakanda. In the movie Black Panther is, it wasn’t Slate.com. Is that right?

Hannah Beachler: I think it was Slate. There’s been a few. I think it might have been Slate. Or was it? No, it wasn’t, Wired? Or something else?

Alex Roy: Salon?

Hannah Beachler: Salon. It was Salon.

Alex Roy: And so what’s interesting is that there’s a lot of science fiction films which badly depict future transportation, but this one is something that a lot of people in urban transport really glommed onto. Thought was cool. So tell us a little- what inspired you, because you’re the production designer of Black Panther. What inspired you when you were, a core tenet of yours is that there are no cars in Wakanda.

Hannah Beachler: No, there are no cars in Wakanda.

Alex Roy: Tell us about it.

Hannah Beachler: It was almost like alleviating a pressure in a sense. You know, that’s not to say that there can’t be cars in Wakanda because we haven’t seen it all. But there’s no cars in Golden City. There’s only public transit and walking, which here’s the thing. You know, it’s interesting that something that is so normal seems so futuristic. And it was because I didn’t knock out the way that it looks. So it’s very familiar to people.

Alex Roy: It’s taken for granted.

Hannah Beachler: It’s not that it’s, you know, it’s not that it’s taken for granted. I don’t- I’m not sure what it is, you know. I didn’t do like the Trotro bus that I talked about, you know, it’s a bus that exists. Now it levitates in Wakanda in Golden City, you know, on a vibranium rail. But it’s the same. It looks the same. If you didn’t see that it was hovering, you wouldn’t know that it didn’t have wheels. And then the train. I mean, we have raised El trains all over this country, so you know my experience is with these things as they are. But what we did was we then thought about the environment that they’re operating in. And how do we sustain and maintain the environment that they’re in? And how do we make it better for people? And that’s really what’s different about the design. And I think people see that like, Okay, this is really something that is serving the bigger aesthetic of Golden City, what you see, Step Town. And it’s also serving the people that are there. That’s really different, because that’s not what happens right now.

Alex Roy: Where’d you grow up?

Hannah Beachler: Dayton, Ohio.  On a horse.

Alex Roy: So did you have-

Hannah Beachler: Transportation was important then too.

Alex Roy: Did you have a car?

Hannah Beachler: I did. I started driving really young because, you know, farmland. You could start driving when you’re like 10.

Alex Roy: And so did you not enjoy driving a car? I mean, where do you live now?

Hannah Beachler: Did you know that I go and drive on a track at least once or twice a month? A Porsche. At high speeds.

Alex Roy: I did not know that. But wait, can we just only talk about that?

Hannah Beachler: I love driving. It is everything to me.

Alex Roy: Were you told to say that in this show?

Hannah Beachler: No, I love driving. It’s it’s literally everything to me.

Alex Roy: And yet there are no cars in Wakanda.

Hannah Beachler: There’s no cars in Wakanda.

Alex Roy: Well, so do you think there’s some cathartic benefit to driving that-

Hannah Beachler: There is. There absolutely is.

Alex Roy: But the people of Wakanda don’t want that?

Hannah Beachler: They don’t get it- I’m just kidding.

Alex Roy: But even as a plot device, right?

Hannah Beachler: “I decide,” I’m kidding. Um, you know, I think they’ve evolved past that. Here’s the thing. Also, Futurism is about not just the evolution of technology and the evolution of transportation, it’s the evolution of people. And so Wakandans, the people, are in a place because remember, they’ve been technologically advanced. It’s 2018 in Wakanda and they’ve been technologically advanced since the Bronze Age. At least that’s when I put it on the timeline.

Alex Roy: They’ve achieved a post scarcity society because vibranium and…

Hannah Beachler: Right and and so they don’t really… they themselves, as humans, have evolved past the need for something like that.

Alex Roy: So you think that direct analog human control of the machine will just, will be something people no longer will crave once they’re relieved of of the need to control a machine, because transportation will be commoditized and artificially controlled?

Hannah Beachler: I think so. Yeah, I believe that.

Alex Roy: Are you a science fiction fan, in general?

Hannah Beachler: Yes.

Alex Roy: Have you read the books of Iain Banks?

Hannah Beachler: No. Oh, maybe I don’t know.

Alex Roy: You may have.

Hannah Beachler: I don’t know the name though. I just said that, sorry Ian.

Alex Roy: Because he has his thing. This, uh, series of books called the Culture Books. And in those books, it’s also a post-scarcity society. So everything that you could ever want is basically free. So no one and people, because they can have anything, choose to go back and actually manually control things, because the catharsis that there is a consequence to choice and danger becomes the only thing of value.

Hannah Beachler: Right.

Alex Roy: So why do you enjoy driving your Porsche on a track?

Hannah Beachler: The danger of it all. And I think what you said is a little bit how the River Tribe is in Wakanda. What, you will probably see. But, um I drive. This is the one thing when I turn on a Porsche, right? That’s not Ford but, when I turn on-

Alex Roy: It’s okay because they do the-

Hannah Beachler: It’s the engine, that’s the first thing. I often say that my way of meditating is driving, it’s the engine and that the fact that I have to focus like I can’t think about 800 things at once, is what I do all day, every day. And when I’m inside of a car, I can turn on music. I can turn off music, and it’s completely silent. If I’m not screaming at the car next to me, um, when I’m on the track I’m not screaming at the car next to me. But, uh you know, I mean, like, that’s my space. There’s no one that I have to answer to inside my car. There’s nothing that I have to like. I’m not obligated to entertain anybody. I’m not obligated to do work– I can’t because I’m driving. Um, not on the phone. I never get on the phone when I’m in a car, so there’s a lot of that, and then it’s control. Because I’m type A. so there’s a control that I enjoy about it and probably you know.

Alex Roy: But you also believe in autonomous vehicles?

Hannah Beachler: I do.

Alex Roy: But, and these-

Hannah Beachler: Not now because if I have to work. Like if it’s for like- so does it have to be one or the other?

Alex Roy: No. In fact, I’m loving that you’ve come here to say this, because I heard you say that you believe in autonomous vehicles and I do too.

Hannah Beachler: I do.

Alex Roy: But I’m also a firm believer in the cathartic value of humans having direct control over machines. But I also believe that if you were to remove the binary choice, the optimal scenario is autonomous technology exists. It is safe culturally and demonstrably by some metric, and that if humans wanna control a machine in the open world, that there is some kind of guard rails that prevent them from hurting themselves or others, and that if we want to experience that danger, we could do so in a closed environment. I think we’re a long way from that perfect world, But anything we can do to mitigate you know, poor decisions is a good thing.

Hannah Beachler: It is. You know, the way I had spoken to a little bit. The way that I have been thinking about it is like, okay, again, Why can’t we do both? Don’t take one away, but in cities we’re at the point where we need to alleviate so many things when it comes to cars, gas cars. You know, our planet, our environment, our, congestion. And that’s why one of my solutions was, like in New York do you pay to drive in the city?

Alex Roy: So you believe in congestion charges or some- people paying for externalities of the modes they choose?

Hannah Beachler: Yeah, but it’s almost like I look at New York and my whole thing is, wouldn’t it be cool to connect all the buildings? So you don’t actually need transit underground anymore because you go directly to where you’re supposed to be instead of a stop where you have to get off and go walk. So if you can connect somehow, either through walkways or train stops or skyways through and around the buildings and then everything on the ground, you tear up all of the concrete, you start getting rid of concrete on the ground and cement and all of the heavy stuff that traps water and floods us and you put energy on the ground. You put, you know, just grass and dirt, and then our sidewalks become absorbing, energy absorbing sidewalks that then power the buildings.

Alex Roy: You should leave production design and go into angel investing in the technology sector. Now there’s-

Hannah Beachler: That’s my big idea for New York. That’s what I’ve been working on for New York. But there’s more to come for that because I’m gonna crack that code.

Alex Roy: Have you been to Rockefeller Center?

Hannah Beachler: I have.

Alex Roy: You know, in the 20 I think it was the movie Things to Come, it was inspired by the H. G. Wells book, and they were talking about positing future modes. And if you look- the setbacks on Rockefeller Center, on the tallest- I think 30 Rock, the setbacks at like 18th and like 27th- I forget what floors they are, were designed to be zeppelin docking bays.

Hannah Beachler: Wow.

Alex Roy: At the time they thought that that would be “The Thing.” Yeah, then the Hindenburg. And wasn’t-

Hannah Beachler: Wasn’t the thing.

Alex Roy: Not so much.

Hannah Beachler: And the thing didn’t happen to become a thing. But that that type of thinking, that type of ingenuity, that type of like, why can’t we go up, and then, we also need to start capping how high we build. That’s a thing.

Alex Roy: Have you spent much time in San Francisco?

Hannah Beachler: A little bit. Not- in Oakland more than San Francisco.

Alex Roy: Paris? Because they have- I mean, they’re capped there. You can’t really build above five or seven without- And so you have this one horrible tower, on the south side of the city. Horrible.

Hannah Beachler: It stands out?

Alex Roy: It’s just it’s horrible. And interestingly, on the Northeast section of Paris is the subway station Nation. They have, they built a building inspired by Le Corbusier buildings, and then the elevator only stops at every other floor in order to encourage community. And now they’re a dangerous, horrible place to live. And the tall buildings became like these very unpleasant places.

Hannah Beachler: Wow, yeah. Frank Lloyd Wright said that, he was like, “Do not build up.” He was totally against that. And what did we do? We went and we built up.

Alex Roy: But now we have San Francisco where you can’t- there’s no construction, and now people, normal people, can’t afford to live in the city.

Hannah Beachler: Right, and there’s less families in the city now because of that as well. So there’s less children in the cities. Which means that the next generation is within two generations in cities and small towns we’re working out of even having to be-

Alex Roy: Regenerative?

Hannah Beachler: Thank you.

Alex Roy: So, unspoken in- behind what you’re saying- coded in what you’re saying is that there there is a very political dimension to the design of transportation systems.

Hannah Beachler: There is, and you know, it’s all about access in the zip code, and the tumbling blocks of it are, then become a huge economic expense for people who do not have money to have that economic expense. Because, you know, people think about it like we’re getting to work on time. You’re you know, the bus comes at eight or the train comes at eight it’s like, Yeah, but what happens when you only can get the five o’clock train and your kids get out of school at three. And then you gotta pay for a babysitter-

Alex Roy: Do you have kids?

Hannah Beachler: I do. I have a son. He’s 21. 21 going on 40.

Alex Roy: And where do you li- where did you live when he was young enough that you had to worry about how he would get to school?

Hannah Beachler: Uh, in Dayton, Ohio. So it was definitely- the only way for him to get to school was for me to take him to school. But then my first class- because I was also in school. So there was always some kind of like, can I get somebody to take him? Because there’s no real public transportation in Dayton. You either have a car or you’re done, or that’s it, you know, then your opportunities become less.

I can distinctly remember when he was going into kindergarten. The school system that I was in was not a good school system, and I could not afford to go to another school system. I just couldn’t afford to move. I just could not afford it. In the terror of that, the anxiety and the terror of that is, you know, real. And that’s real for so many people who don’t have the option to go to a better school system, to move closer to the BART, to move closer to the subway to have a bus station around the corner, to have a car to drive 60 minutes to commute. It’s stressful, and it’s hard and your opportunities close down, and now you’re stuck with just what’s ever in your community. So then, when you have a community, that’s lower income/high crime, what’s in your communities is liquor stores and cash deposit places- like check cash places and your General Dollar. And all of these places that are not health- there’s no grocery store, there’s no produce, now our kids aren’t healthy, and I’m working at the- it’s just a tumbling block. And then we wonder why… we wonder why.

Alex Roy: Well, I was reading that mobility is the number one path out of poverty. But people think that if you just give someone a car, and that’s the only way they can get around, that the second order consequences of that can also be very damaging to society, that we need some kind of equity, or like equilibrium in terms of how people can choose to get from A to B.

Hannah Beachler: Exactly, exactly.

Alex Roy: And that’s why the Wakanda depiction was so interesting and even what you said, I find fascinating because again you think people will evolve out of not wanting to drive. And yet, you do recognize a cathartic value.

Hannah Beachler: Oh, yeah.

Alex Roy: Have you thought about this this debate over automation that I mean, I just had a friend here earlier, who said, by definition, more automation means there will be fewer jobs for people. And I always- and I mean- and one part of me said, well obviou- it seems true, it has to be zero-sum. But on the flip side, if someone had only- had no- lived in a mobility desert, people call them transit deserts. These impoverished neighborhoods that don’t have- there’s no mobility choices except a car. But I always say, well, what if, like, an autonomous vehicle was cheaper to ride places, than ownership of a car? That could unlock opportunity for someone who might not otherwise have it. And if people had- if you give away free scooters and a subscription to an autonomous vehicle service then you could unlock all these human beings from this cage of mobility. You know, structural unemployment is something people talk about. But I think we just suffer from structural immobility. People live in these virtual cages and that putting a train line or a bus isn’t enough.

Hannah Beachler: It’s not enough.

Alex Roy: They need freedom to choose.

Hannah Beachler: They need more. And I think a lot of it, too, is based off what you’re saying is that the freedom to choose is also when I leave, when I come home and all of that. Everybody’s on a schedule in New York because of the trains. You know it’s like you’re coming and going when that train-

Alex Roy: I live in New York so-

Hannah Beachler: When that train comes and goes. It’s not like you can be like Okay, well, I just I would prefer to leave in 15 minutes. The train isn’t like, I’ll be there in 15. You know what I mean, like, when do you give people that choice. That way- it’s like, if I have to be at work at eight, I can then figure out how to get to where I need to go and get my kids to where they need to go and whatnot. That’s why I was always trying to crack the code in New York.

Alex Roy: There is no cracking the code. There’s just buildi- wrapping your life around the built in inefficiencies and hoping for the best.

Hannah Beachler: You know. But that’s what we have to not do. That’s the hard part. We just don’t want to do the hard part and the hard work. We have to give something to infrastructure then- the changes- we need to get rid of the concrete on the ground. We need to either put cars up or people up and the other down. We need to look- Look, when I worked on a show, I just got done with Todd Haynes in Cincinnati, Ohio, and their downtown is pretty small. I had a whole thing about the downtown that I was gonna do. We won’t get into that, right? But you know what I did? I had my car shipped up because I have a car with the big engine because I like-

Alex Roy: What is it?

Hannah Beachler: I have a Range Rover. 425 horsepower.

Alex Roy: As you wish.

Hannah Beachler: Right? So and it goes. But what I found that I did every single day was ride the Bird to work.

Alex Roy: Hmm.

Hannah Beachler: And I loved it! But I think me and me experiencing that was realizing that I don’t have t- and how much more convenient it was not to pull my car out because I knew I couldn’t park close to where I gotta work. I could pull the Bird right up on the sidewalk and get off. And it was like a dollar, you know? And it- just downtown when I had to go to a location and it was right downtown, 6/7 blocks. I just hop on the Bird, you know? And there was always one there, so it opened my mind to like, oh, there’s other- like I don’t just have to drive like I can still get around enjoy myself getting around. It became a whole new challenge riding that thing, you know, and I loved it. Again, I’m Tom Cruise in the making. I am. I am.

Alex Roy: As someone who lives in New York and loves driving I’m a little nervous about- like I’m cool with AVs. Like I want a subscription to an AV service that will show up guaranteed. I wanna know what the ETA is. I’m a little nervous about relying on a shared scooter service because if it, that one day I’ve got to get from A to B is the day that somebody else took it-

Hannah Beachler: Right and not relying on it but having it as an option.

Alex Roy: Yeah, of course.

Hannah Beachler: Having that as an option that’s not a car, because if you don’t want to get in, you know what I mean. Like that that’s not a car within a- in city limits. And that’s saying that that’s something- like there’s certainly places like New Orleans that shut that down, you know, And it’s not a place for it because we know what the French Quarter is. We know why people- Mardi Gras and all of that stuff. The last thing you want is a bunch of Birds during Mardi Gras and all of that going on.

Alex Roy: I was just at South by Southwest and observed what you described.

Hannah Beachler: So you get- you know what I mean? And that’s not a good look or a good situation to get around that city. And that’s the way that city is almost 365. So I don’t know that that’s something that would work there like it would work in Dayton or work in Los Angeles. Cause I see them here as well, but it’s an option.

Alex Roy: But it’s an interesting thing that’s built into like the socio-political fabric of this country’s- the further West you go, the city’s are newer and as a result, have baked in all the consequences of suboptimal infrastructure choices made at later dates that we have to, like, unwind today. And I wanted to live in LA as a kid cause I wanted to have a car. And then I finally lived here, I’m like this sucks! Like, please give me a train or or now an AV. Or please give me an AV and drop-off/pick-up point right by a good train station. And I am yours. Like, I love you. All right, here’s a question I have to ask because we’re running out of time and you’re- as a science fiction fan- and it seems like you’re- you are actually a great optimist about human nature. So you you clearly see, like the arc of history ends with people being smart enough not to want to do things that hurt others.

Hannah Beachler: Yes, I’m all about the fairytale ending because that’s how we all- Here’s the thing, though, and I want to say this really quickly. We all grew up with the good guy winning at the end with the world being okay at the end. We are programmed for that ending. Why we aren’t trying to do the ending or get the ending or come to the ending that we know so well. It’s in our souls in our hearts. We know what the ending is. So I believe that we know it well enough that it will end this way. It will be the good guy wins and the world is okay. And it may not be like Captain America coming down and saving, but we are all gonna lean on each other one day. We will. We’ll have to.

Alex Roy: Captain Wisdom.

Hannah Beachler: Captain Wisdom.

Alex Roy: Okay. So how- like I who don’t believe- it’s a miracle that I’m here, because I don’t believe that technology is the goal, but is like the means. So how how does one educator convince someone who is a skeptic of technology, they can trust it? How does- how do you- How do you believe one could convince, Like my mother, that she could get into autonomous vehicle? Is it a number? Is it a brand? Is it? What is it?

Hannah Beachler: No, I think it’s just- I mean, look, my mother would never get into a- I barely can get her on a computer!

Alex Roy: Would she let you drive her around in a Porsche?

Hannah Beachler: Um, no. But you know what, she would get in an autonomous vehicle with me. It’s the same thing as-

Alex Roy: Well that’s it!

Hannah Beachler: Here’s the thing. It’s the same thing about Uber. Let’s just think about, like, what we trust and what we don’t trust. Single woman in New York, a guy pulls up in a car, looks at me and I hop in? I’ve never seen you before in my life, but I’m like, Oh, Uber’s here, boom, Get in. I don’t question it. I might look at my app like I think it’s the license plate- I don’t know what this person’s intentions are. I have fought with a lot of Uber guys. “Say my name.” “No, you have to say my name”. “No you tell me who I am.” You know that conversation on the side of the road? But we willingly jumped in. There are people, even when we do hear something that’s not so wonderful, we still get into our Ubers and we never even- there wasn’t even a moment from taxi to Uber that we said, maybe we take a step back and think about this. So I don’t think that people will have a problem getting into autonomous cars at all because they didn’t have a problem getting into some weirdo’s car, that smells like feet and cheese. I’m gonna go ahead and say it, I’m talking to you New York and-

Alex Roy: It’s not just New York.

Hannah Beachler: So, but you know what I mean? Like, I didn’t have a problem with that. So I don’t feel like anyone will have that problem because we are by nature trusting. Even if we’re not, we’re by nature trusting. You know? I gotta stick with that part of life because I can be dark and I could go dark and I don’t want to.

Alex Roy: So you are an optimist. So you went to Cape Town to do research for, Black Panther. Right?

Hannah Beachler: I went to all of South Af- we went all the way from Cape Town to Ladysmith and back.

Alex Roy: I’m a huge fan of Mad Max and Road Warrior and I heard that the police highway patrol in Cape Town- no sorry, Johannesburg, Jo’burg, that had the highest fatality rate for police officers in the world because of the carjacking problem, and that they had frequent police chases and shootouts, and apparently the police Highway Patrol units, each team of two is also required to do their own mechanical work. And so the police cars in Jo’burg for the highway units are all like Mad Max. This one might have armor and gun mounts. This might be prepared for, like, you know, off-roading, and they all do their own work. When the car is destroyed, it’s destroyed, and they have a fixed budget to spend any way they like. And that, to me, was the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. I mean, I could go on all I just want to talk about movies and not even science fiction films. But last question. Craziest thing you’ve seen happen on the road while you were driving? You could confess whatever you like.

Hannah Beachler: I like to shoot the gap when I see two trucks, I’ll go ahead and say that. Don’t try it at home kids. But my son takes issue with that. I don’t think I’ve really seen anything that’s super crazy on that- I mean there’s been some crazy vehicles that I’ve seen out there like I saw a Batmobile once. I was, like, really that car next to me?

Alex Roy: Was that-

Hannah Beachler: That was Atlanta.

Alex Roy: Oh it’s Atlanta.

Hannah Beachler: Yeah. So there’s some crazy drivers in Atlanta, but not really anything where- I think the craziest thing on the road when I’m driving is probably me.

Alex Roy: I hope not.

Hannah Beachler: I think there’s somewhere somebody is telling a story cause about like, do you see that girl? My father had a lead foot. Look, I blamed it all on my dad. He had a– rest in peace, Dad, but I’m blaming you. He had a lead foot, and we just grew up that way. Like he just did whatever. Like the craziest thing on the road was my dad passing the the exit that he had to get off when I was nine and putting it in reverse and going backwards on the highway to hit the exit. Or when we would go to Florida and we would hit a little patch in Georgia. He would be like, and I was, like, eight. He’d put the car on cruise control, 55 cause that’s what it was, and then he’d be like, okay, just go ahead and sit on my lap and steer and then he’d go to sleep.

Alex Roy: Well, I would think that’s what ended on that note.

Hannah Beachler: Well that’s the craziest thing!

Alex Roy: Because every- what- if we could compare the the Hannah who walked in to the Hannah walking out. We- that really is the human condition, like we know better, but…

Hannah Beachler: But.

Alex Roy: Well, thank you so much for coming.

Hannah Beachler: Thank you so much for having me!

Alex Roy: It was really, really great speaking to y- If we want to learn more about you in general, beyond your projects, are you on Twitter?

Hannah Beachler: I’m on Twitter, @chinchilla1970.

Alex Roy: Wait, chinchilla?

Hannah Beachler: Yes, I know it’s the na- that was the name that- a nickname I had from years ago that stuck, but it’s c-h-i-n-c-h-i-l-l-a. So it’s a little bit cooler than the actual animal.

Alex Roy: Wait, chinchilla…?

Hannah Beachler: 1970.

Alex Roy: Well, thanks so much, Hannah.

Hannah Beachler: Thank you.

Alex Roy: Well that was that was a really cool episode, Bryan. You know, I’m really sorry you weren’t part of it. What did you think of Hannah Beachler’s big secret?

Bryan Salesky: Well, I think it was just so appropriate that that she loves performance driving. How cool is that?

Alex Roy: It makes me feel like there’s a future for human driving. I mean I was happy to know about that.

Bryan Salesky: Totally. And she seemed to be really passionate about it. Like this was not just, you know, ehh on occasion I take a weekend. She loves it.

Alex Roy: Yeah she really loves it. And this thing also about her mom, like how she would like- if her mom would get in, she would do it. You know, I always thought that if you were going to go to market with it- a self driving vehicle, for example, if one were to do that, maybe someone like you, like the best way to do it would be to- well, you know, put a child in it on day one.

Bryan Salesky: I mean, when she said that her mom would get in if she got in, I mean, that’s case closed?

Alex Roy: Yeah. I mean, it would mean- I’m surprised you haven’t asked me if I will put Coco in in the car.

Bryan Salesky: Alex Roy, will you put Coco in an Argo self-driving car?

Alex Roy: Are you saying- Are you asking whether I’ll put my divine baby angel, the greatest creation I’ve ever seen on this Earth, in such a veh- Yes, I would! But I would only put her in in the Argo vehicle if I were with her. I think-

Bryan Salesky: That’s fair.

Alex Roy: Skin in the game, like Taleb says, skin in the game. All right, we should wrap this up. Bryan, have you changed your mind about social media? Is there-

Bryan Salesky: No.

Alex Roy: Well we can’t find you anywhere?

Bryan Salesky: I’m good.

Alex Roy: If you want to learn more about the No Parking podcast, you could find us online at NoParkingPodcast.com. Follow us on Twitter @NoParkingPod. One more time NoParkingPod, not NoParkingPodcast, cause that’s 16 characters and Twitter’s only 15. And you can follow me on all platforms @AlexRoy144. And if you want to be a guest on No Parking or you know someone who might want to be a guest, hit me up, Alex@NoParkingPodcast.com. See ya next week.